Home Forums The Japanese Language 'する' verbs & 'Group 1' verbs.

This topic contains 8 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  vanandrew 12 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #36625

    vanandrew
    Member

    I’ve been looking over the whole how to convert verbs from ‘ます’ form to dictionary (casual) form and so forth as per: http://www.textfugu.com/season-5/dict-verbs/3-2/#top

    In the lesson it states group 1 verbs are determined by the the last kana in the stem being an “い” sound (like き, し, み, ち, etc). It also states する verbs have a stem ending in し.

    I’m not 100% sure how to identify ’する’ verbs & ‘Group 1′ verbs when the verb stem ends in し.

    If I see a verb in ます form with a stem in ending in し, how do I tell if it is a する type verb or a group 1 verb?

    For example:

    べんきょうします. Take ます off and it leaves: べんきょうし.

    Based on the last kana rule it looks like a group 1 verb, but it’s a する Verb (Irregular Verbs).

     

    Is there some rule to help here?

     

    #36627

    Joel
    Member

    Couple of points:

    1. The “stem ends in い” rule for spotting group one verbs is not hard-and-fast – there’s always exceptions. 見ます (みます), to give an example, is group two. Another way to define the groups is that all group two verbs have dictionary forms ending in る (which is why they’re also called る-verbs) but again there’s exceptions. For example, 作る (つくる) is group one (which, incidentally, are also called う-verbs).

    2. する compound verbs are always Noun+する – this rule is one of the exceptions to the “every rule has exceptions” rule. 勉強 (べんきょう) is a noun, meaning “study”. Generally it’s going to be two or more kanji before you reach the する/します while group one verbs ending in す tend to only have one. Without kanji, you’ll notice nouns tend to be four kana long (often with glides), while verb stems are usually only two or three, and never have glides.

    3. Without kanji to help you along, or if the kanji just isn’t helping, then it’s really just a matter of remembering them case-by-case, or getting good enough to intuit it. Maybe try sounding it out, to see if it sounds a little silly.

    #36628

    vanandrew
    Member

    Thanks Joel.

    I noted the part about する verbs being based on nouns, but unless I already knew the noun it was going to be hard!

    The point you make (2) about the kanji being a general guide sounds like it will be a good help.

     

    #36812

    vanandrew
    Member

    Joel – sorry should have asked immediately, but ‘glides’? What do you mean by that?

    #36817

    Joel
    Member

    Glides are きゃ, しゅ, びょ et cetera. They’re pretty much exclusive to on-readings of kanji (and foreign loan words) and never occur in kun-readings.

    #36819

    vanandrew
    Member

    Ah, very good, thanks. I didn’t realise that was the name for those.

    #36821

    Joel
    Member

    Ah, Koichi calls them combination hiragana.

    #36848

    I noted the part about する verbs being based on nouns, but unless I already knew the noun it was going to be hard!

    Well then, what does that tell you? Learn more vocab, of course :D When you’re at a beginner level, it’s not really essential to be able to predict anything, so don’t worry about “How can I tell this or that just by looking at it?”. If it’s an ambiguous case – or something else you’re not sure of – look it up, don’t be frustrated that you can’t guess it straight away; like Joel says, you’ll develop an intuition for certain things over time.

    #36863

    vanandrew
    Member

    Thanks Mister.

    I thought expericence (learning more vocab) would help, but I was hoping that there may be a rule of some sort. I like rules!

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