This topic contains 9 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by 
-
Posts
-
Hello.
So, as the title says, I’m a bit confused about when to use on’yomi and when to use kun’yomi. I have read this page on TextFugu, which seems to say that you (usually) use the on’yomi when a kanji is combined with another kanji (without hiragana), and you use the kun’yomi otherwise.
However, I seem to have already run into an exception to this early on, in one of the sentence decks given to me by TextFugu (TextFugu Sentences 006), and there wasn’t any explanation about it.
I’m talking about: 十は七じゃありません (10 is not 7).
The Anki card says that this is read as じゅう は なな じゃありません (juu wa nana jaarimasen), which is using the on’yomi for 十 but the kun’yomi for 七. As far as I can tell, they’re both used in the same way, as standalone kanji without any other kanji or hiragana “attached” to them. The TextFugu page for 十 says that numbers always use the on’yomi reading when alone. So why is 七 using the kun’yomi reading?
Am I missing something? Is there some explanation for this? Does the じゃありません for some reason count as hiragana attached to the 七, making it use kun’yomi instead? Is this just a random exception to the rule that I’m going to have to remember somehow?
Thanks!
七 is a bit of a weird one in that its readings tend to be fairly interchangeable. 四 as well, to a lesser extent. But yeah, that’s one of a number of places where Koichi appears to contradict himself and doesn’t really explain why. Another that often comes up is that he teaches 一人 = ひとり and 二人 = ふたり but doesn’t explain that these two are the exceptions, so when he throws 七人 at people, they (rather logically) expect it to be ななり when actually it’s しちにん.
However, I seem to have already run into an exception to this early on, in one of the sentence decks given to me by TextFugu (TextFugu Sentences 006), and there wasn’t any explanation about it.
The Golden Rule of Japanese: every rule has exceptions. Including this one. =)
Forget about on and kun readings.
on and kun are useful from a linguistic point of view, if you want to take a language and categorise it and work out a grammar, etc. etc.
If you are learning, it doesn’t really matter if you know what a kun or an on reading is. You just need to know the reading.
As a beginner there are enough challenges for you, without trying to remember linguistic labels.
The more you learn Japanese the easier it gets. Once you have learnt your first 120 kanji, and you know the basic grammar, you’ll understand better how the language works, and then maybe you will want to revisit on an kun readings, or not.
As far as the whole
nana / shichi thing.
I’d advise you to use nana, at all times except when you specifically should use shichi.
Its been explained as shi means death in Japanese, and so Japanese people prefer not to use shichi, except when they do.
Take that meaning with as many grains of salt as you like.
It would be nice if any language followed a single set of rules for it all, no natural languages do.
Don’t consider anything you get taught in Japanese as a rule, they are just a general guideline. Some more useful than others.
And don’t get too hung up on any one thing. If you don’t understand, make a note, carry on, when you know more Japanese revisit it. And you’ll likely understand.
Its been explained as shi means death in Japanese, and so Japanese people prefer not to use shichi, except when they do.
I don’t think し as a homophone for “death” has anything to do with the use of なな over しち (only the use of よん instead of し for 四). If they disliked し enough to not use しち then they wouldn’t use, say, します (the polite form of “to do”).
I also don’t think なな is as prevalent over しち as you seem to think.
I think the death thing is often just an excuse rather than saying I have no F’in clue why.
I wouldn’t say that it’s worthless to think of Kun and On when you are a beginner, as it can be highly effective in keeping things straight in your head. The key is to not get hung up on it. At all.
As mentioned, use it as a guideline, but expect every new word you learn to break the guidelines, and be really happy when it doesn’t.
It is much more effective to focus on how each Kanji is used in the specific instance you are learning it than keeping track of if it’s On or Kun, but it is still a good idea to take note of the difference, as it will get you in the practice of making those connections, just don’t make it your focus, especially as a beginner.
That’s why I said
Take with as many grains of salt as you like.
Is there really that many places to use the number seven? Or do you mean in compound kanji?
Thanks for the help. It’s a bit clearer now.
Is there really that many places to use the number seven? Or do you mean in compound kanji?
“I’d like to buy seven bananas, please”
“Next Thursday is seven days away.”
“This evening, I’ll be watching Seven Wives for Seven Brothers… or The Seven Samurai.”
“My phone number is 555-7777.”
“The politician swindled seven million yen.”
“What do you get when you multiply seven by nine?”Yes, there are many places to use the number seven. Or, for that matter, numbers full stop.
Ok so they are all pretty much normal uses of the number seven. I thought you might have some more exotic uses of the number seven.
“I’d like to buy seven bananas, please”
I’d say either shichi or nana is fine here, using the hon counter.
“Next Thursday is seven days away.”
Nanoka?
“This evening, I’ll be watching Seven Wives for Seven Brothers… or The Seven Samurai.”
I have no idea what seven wives for seven brothers would be in Japanese, is that like seven brides for seven brothers?
Seven samurai appears to use shichi
“My phone number is 555-7777.”
I think either is fine here.
“The politician swindled seven million yen.”
Either is fine here too nanahyakumanen or shichihyakumanen
“What do you get when you multiply seven by nine?”
I think either is fine here as well.
Places where I would matter I would say are months, vs, amount of months.
shichigatsu vs nanakagetsu.
So my rule was use nana, except where you should use shichi.
Looking at the above, I don’t really see where my rule falls down.
That said it’s a pretty stupid rule, it really doesn’t say anything useful. But worrying about stuff like that when you’re a beginner is pretty pointless anyway, so for a beginner rule its perfectly adequate.
For people who are beyond beginner I’d say, just learn Japanese.
I can’t really see what point you were making though.
Did you have a point?
Ok so they are all pretty much normal uses of the number seven. I thought you might have some more exotic uses of the number seven.
We were looking for exotic uses? Um… 七屋. 七夕. I guess. Also, a fun one for eight is 八百屋.
“I’d like to buy seven bananas, please”
I’d say either shichi or nana is fine here, using the hon counter.
ななつ also works.
I have no idea what seven wives for seven brothers would be in Japanese, is that like seven brides for seven brothers?
Oh yeah, brides. I knew that.
Seven samurai appears to use shichi
On the other hand, the title of 山田くんと七人の魔女 (“Yamada-kun and the Seven Witches”) is read as “nananin”
“My phone number is 555-7777.”
I think either is fine here.
Actually, phone numbers always use specific readings, to avoid confusion. For 7, it’s always なな.
So my rule was use nana, except where you should use shichi.
Looking at the above, I don’t really see where my rule falls down.
Well no, but like you said, “use なな, except for where you don’t” is so self-evident it’s never going to fall down. I could also say “use しち, except for where you don’t”, and I’d be equally correct.
I can’t really see what point you were making though.
Did you have a point?
More countering your strange query of “Is there really that many places to use the number seven?” That’s going a whole step further than “when am I ever going to use trigonometry in Real Life?”
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.