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I find that Japanese has similar sounds as Afrikaans which is derived from Dutch. So much so, that I often have a good giggle when we watch Anime. For instance, the phrase sodane is pronounced exactly the same as an Afrikaans phrase (so dan nê).
So = So. Dan = then. The nê part is the hard part. Depending on the situation it can mean a lot of differnt things. I can understand why it is a hard concept to understand in English. It is like saying: is that so? you don’t say? while someone is talking to you. Kind of anyway.
I Google translated it, since that is sometimes quite entertaining. It translates as: so then is not it. I would have translated it as: So then, hey? The “is not it” part might be bad English, but quite a good translation as to the “spirit” of it. A bit of a philosophical ring to it and some reflection thrown in there as well.
I think it is a very Dutch/Afrikaans thing. Not used that often in Afrikaans anymore, but I can imagine a VOC Dutch trader bargaining with a Japanese merchant, repeating the phrase over and over again. Because that is probably what you would have done back in the day, just to let the other party know that you were paying attention to what they were saying.
Anyway just found it a bit strange on the ear and was wondering if there are any Dutch people with thoughts on this and other examples of Dutch in Japanese?Google Translate tends to struggle with phrases like that. It’s not, unfortunately, a Dutch word – そうだね = casual form of そうですね = as you noticed, “is that so?” You don’t have to go too far to find actual Dutch words in Japanese, though they’re pretty much all written in katakana, and are mostly nouns rather than conversational interjections. For example, コップ (meaning a drinking glass) comes from the Dutch kop. ドイツ (meaning Germany) comes from duits. コーヒー, even though it sounds like coffee, comes from the Dutch koffie. Actually, there’s a fair few words that sound like they came from English, but we’re actually brought by the Dutch – ハム, アルコール, ビール et cetera.
Aside from loan words, linguists reckon that spoken Japanese is completely dissimilar to any other language, even to the languages in the region.
Still, it’s always amused me that some Japanese words sound like Australian slang, and happen to have compatible meanings too – for example 立派 (りっぱ = splendid = ripper) and 突破 (とっぱ = breaking through = topper). =P
Actually, there’s a fair few words that sound like they came from English, but we’re actually brought by the Dutch – ハム, アルコール, ビール et cetera.
If there are Japanese words that sound the same as both Dutch and English, how can we be sure they were taken from Dutch and not English?
The magic of historical linguistics. My guess: because they appear in Japanese texts long before English ever arrived in Japan.
That, and “ham” and “beer” originally came to English from Dutch anyway. “Alcohol” is Latin.
ビール = “bier”
Even if “ham” and “beer” came to English from Dutch, if Japanese assimilates either from English, then that’s not them coming from Dutch. Just like if Japanese people started using an English word of Latin origin, you wouldn’t refer to it as being a Latin loanword.
The main point in that post was not the sentence finishing with “anyway”. Which often happens to be the case for such sentences.
Some research indicates that Dutch and Portuguese loan words tend to date from the 16th and 17th centuries, while English didn’t really arrive in force until post-WWII. So, like I said: historical linguistics.
German loan words, incidentally, tend to come from around the time of the Meiji Restoration – late 19th to early 20th centuries.
I guess I misinterpreted your “anyway” :P I took it to mean you were saying “Whether they came from English or Dutch, the English words are of Dutch origin anyway, so either way you’re wrong” XD Like if you said “Spiders are the fastest insects” and I replied “There are plenty of insects faster than spiders… and spiders aren’t even insects anyway!”; the “anyway” part undercuts the whole argument.
As a slight change of subject, when the Dutch arrived in Japan (or whichever Western nation reached there first), how did they come to figure out what the natives were saying? They certainly didn’t have Tae Kim or similar to refer to :P It’s always intrigued me how people can decipher languages without having any previous knowledge (as adults, rather than just growing up with it, I mean). In a more extreme case, I was reading an article on Ancient Egyptian language yesterday, and it’s amazing that they can actually make sense of this stuff and the phonology of it when there are no people who understand it already around to guide them.
Well, they were stuck on Ancient Egyptian for a long while. Then they got a lucky break: someone found the Rosetta Stone, which contained the same passage written out in both Ancient Egyptian and Ancient Greek, the latter of which they did understand. That’s where the name of the Rosetta Stone computer program comes from, incidentally.
As for how you learn a completely new language with no context at all, I’d assume you’d start with concrete things, like “rice”, “trees”, “gold”… “Jesuit priest”… before moving on to slightly more abstract things like “buy”, “sell” and “if you give me rice, I’ll give you gold.” I’d assume they’d also had some knowledge of Chinese, given that Marco Polo had been to China and back at least a century previous.
But yeah, linguists do all sorts of studies in this sort of thing. Also: how to babies learn language, considering they’ve got even less context than explorers encountering a completely new language for the first time? =)
I have noticed that a lot of the loan words sound a bit familiar. コーヒー especially. It always sounded weird to me. I just assumed the Japanese were mainly influenced by American English. Koffie (same in Dutch and Afrikaans) sounds similar to the Japanese – just replace the “h”in ヒー with a “f” and you’ve got the right pronunciation.
Suppose it’s was a bit exciting finding some link and makes it easier to learn that’s all.
I’m sorry, for not being clear. Guess I should have used better grammar, but lazy and tired and just didn’t feel like it for a post. It was more of a “Kinda, anyway…” “Sorta, you know.” I meant to describe what the phrase means in Afrikaans and then realised that it was hard to explain in English. Afrikaans and English are actually so close, but I still couldn’t propperly explain it. Would need load of examples. There are slightly different meanings depending on context and the tone of your voice. That is why I gave up with an “anyway”…
Anyway ;) Good point on the 2nd part. A friend told me how she got lost in Moscow and had to ask for directions without speaking a word of Russian. She told me she thought she mannaged because South Africans speak with their hands. I don’t know if we do, but maybe that’s what they did. Also don’t you just pick up language by ear, as you do pronunciation? As with kids, so with adults.
Ah yeah, I forgot about the Rosetta Stone – that would definitely help, yes. As for “How do babies learn language?”, I’ve honestly got no idea :D
@Pxl: I was actually referring to Joel’s use of “anyway”, don’t worry haha.
Actually I believe ドイツ came from German; the word Duetschland. They just cut of the land. Although that’s just my guess.
Nah, it’s Dutch. The Germans themselves didn’t turn up until a couple of centuries later. Amusingly, オランダ (= Holland) comes from Portuguese. As does イギリス (= Great Britain).
Don’t ask me how they know this. It’s all about etymology, and the timing of when words start appearing in texts.
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