Home Forums Off Topic Martial Arts for Kanjiman8

This topic contains 13 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Aikibujin 12 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #33658

    Aikibujin
    Member

    Sadly all MA being good for self defense is very far from the truth. All martial arts are not created equal (nothing in life is), and when you take the individual schools into consideration, even more so. In fact some of them can be rather dangerous because they make you feel like you are prepared for self defense when you actually aren’t. This over confidence could get you hurt in a situation where you would have been better off just walking away, talking it through, or calling the police instead.

    It is true that you can usually find certain teachers from any martial art that can teach you good self defense, but that has to actually be a focus on the instructors side for many martial arts to actually be effective, and they’ll often teach the art in a different way than many other instructors do.

    I do agree that most discussions about what martial art is best are indeed useless, but that’s simply because most of those discussions are based on emotions instead of facts and actual unbiased experience. It is true that there isn’t a single ultimate martial art, but different ones are better at different things.

    Usually, these days, most martial arts have a main focus on one of three things, usually mixing the other two in to lesser degrees as well: Fitness, Well Being, and Self Defense.

    Most martial arts originally focused of self defense or more accurately warfare, usually stemming from some feudal period in its native culture’s history. If it’s a weapon art, it usually comes from a time when those weapons were abundant (eg Katana, Sabers, Kris, etc), or the only things they could get their hands on, like common tools that they made into weapons (Nunchaku, Sai, Eskrima, etc). Or a time when a certain people were oppressed and often had no access to weapons in the case of empty hand arts.

    This is particularly the case with your older martial arts: Kalaripayattu, Shaolin, Wudang, Kenjustu, Jujutsu, Karate, Kobudou, Subak, Capoeira, Silat, Pradal Serey, Muay Boran, Krabi Krabong, Destreza, and other western fencing and sword styles.

    Obviously war eventually subsides and you are left with peace time. Peace is what most warriors strive for, but are usually at a loss when it’s finally achieved. This is usually when a particular martial art will lean away from the martial and more towards the art. It becomes more of a cultural tradition than something used in actual combat. Usually peace brings prosperity, and this brings better weapons and new ways of doing things, so the previous arts become outdated or uneeded.

    In some cases the arts are then used as a form of warrior fitness or dance, retaining some martial aspects, but focusing more on discipline, keeping in shape, or aesthetic display. Others develop a more spiritual aspect allowing the warriors to focus on actually living without a war, or other more metaphysical goals. Then still you have others that move towards the sports arena, becoming martial competitions.

    Some of the newer martial arts never actually had a true warfare origin at all, and were specifically designed for fitness or sport, usually using the modern examples of the older arts as a basis. Unfortunately a lot of these arts will claim to teach self defense even though they know it’s not actually their focus at all.

    Some of the classic warfare origin arts, still claim to focus on self defense, but due to rigid tradition have stagnated over time. So they may have been effective for self defense a hundred years ago, and could thus see some modern application in similar circumstances, but are sorely lacking in many modern combat situations.

    The introduction of ground fighting recently showed how far many classic martial arts have fallen behind, and few take into consideration modern weapons and street environments. So the fact that an art started out as being used for warfare doesn’t mean it’s going to be good for self defense now days. In fact some of the best ones were only recently developed, and are so good because modern self defense is what they were specifically designed for.

    #33659

    Aikibujin
    Member

    Anyway as I said different arts have different focuses, regardless of what they might claim.

    Arts like Judo, Kendo, (Sport) Tae Kwon Do, Savate, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Vale Tudo, and Wrestling were actually developed for fitness or sport, though they may be based on warfare arts. Modern Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, Qigong, and Karate-do focus more on spiritual well being.

    This doesn’t mean that they are useless for self defense, some of them can be very good for it, but the art in general does not mainly focus on this, so they usually won’t be as good as other arts that do focus on it.

    The exception is when you have an instructor who is really good at the art and they focus on self defense in their teaching. As said in the first post, these teachers will often teach the art in a way that is not common for that art, but they can be just as effective or even more so than an art that does focus on self defense.

    So what that boils down to is the art is only as effective as the teacher. If their focus is on self defense and that is what they are specifically training you for, you’re probably in good hands. So obviously if you choose an art based on sports and fitness or well being, it will be more difficult to find a trainer who focuses on self defense. These instructors can be better because they have had to specifically adapt the art for modern self defense, and thus are likely to avoid stagnation.

    You may be safer though choosing an art that does focus primarily on self defense as a whole, as that will likely be the focus of the instructor as well, though this is not always the case, and they could still be a poor instructor.

    You also have schools that are referred to as “McDojo” they are the fast food restaurants of the martial arts world. They often have a lot of bling in the form of fancy training centers with the latest modern equipment, often sporting a lot of trophies. They will tell you that their focus is whatever you happen to be asking about at the time, or whatever happens to be the latest rage, but their true focus in simply money.

    They are only interested in your money and turning a profit, often selling expensive uniforms, gear, and DVDs. Also known as “belt factories,” as anyone can get a black belt (or the equivalent) as long as they show up and pay their fees, often getting you to pay in advance, and in some cases allowing you to skip certain ranks if you pay more up front.

    Unfortunately any art can have these types of training schools, though they tend to be predominant in the more popular arts. In the 70′s they populated “Kung Fu” and Karate schools, in the 80′s it was Ninjutsu, in the 90′s it was Tae Kwon Do, 2000′s it was Jujutsu or Jui-Jitsu, and recently it’s Mixed Martial Arts. The dates overlap a bit, but you get the drift. Some of these school are still operating in their original form, others will magically change the art they teach to reflect current trends. You will also see a lot of them that teach their own art. This way they are not directly accountable to any other martial art school that could claim they are teaching things improperly (Note: Not all schools that teach their own art/style are like this, but be wary).

    So it can be hard to tell if the school actually focuses on self defense, or if they just claim that they do. If the school promotes a lot of family deals, and getting everyone involved, it’s probably not focused on self defense, or at least not effective self defense.

    Always ask the instructor what they focus on, and see what their first answer is. Wait for them to bring up self defense and see how long it takes them to mention it. Some are good and will simply cold read you, offering whatever they think you’re looking for.

    Often the best way to tell, without experience, is to look at the students instead. If you see a class that looks like they’re mostly teens and 20 somethings right out of your local gym, fitness is probably the focus. If they seem to be mostly children and teens, it could actually be a martial day care center. If they start talking about organics, natural fibers, and the way the art makes them feel, it’s probably focused on well being and spirituality. These are generalizations of course, but you can see what I mean.

    Another thing to ask about is any big events they have. If they don’t have any or they are focused on weekend get togethers to local areas, probably fitness. If they focus on weekend retreats with meditation in remoteish areas, probably spiritual well being. If they do a lot of point sparing and forms tournaments, it’s probably one of the two or a mix of both, as these are your more sporty arts.

    Effective self defense focused classes will usually consist of people at varying ages, but mostly consist of adult males. If they look like you wouldn’t want to meet them in a dark alley, definitely self defense, but maybe a bit too hard core for your tastes. They tend to focus less on ranks and their events will likely focus on seminars with instructors from other arts/styles, or higher ranked instructors within their own organization, and possibly full contact tournaments (rarely). They will also focus on dealing with other fighting styles and modern weapons rather than just generic attacks.

    • This reply was modified 12 years, 5 months ago by  Aikibujin.
    #33661

    Aikibujin
    Member

    As for Wing Chun specifically, I think it’s a fantastic art. I have taken classes in it, but more in a cross training fashion than dedicated training. I have however trained with a lot of Wing Chun guys, having a few close friends who studied it as their primary art. While I was teaching Kenpo, I had a regular group with them where we would get together after class and train in modern self defense tactics and sparing.

    My experience with this group, as well as others from seminars and various tournaments, were pretty consistent. The main thing I saw in terms of their self defense skills was that newer students were horrible with it, but experienced students were pretty solid. I mean newer as in 1-2 years of training and experienced as around 5 years of training, and anything in-between varied greatly on said student and their own focus.

    Wing Chun is one of those arts that by itself is pretty effective for general self defense. If you have a good instructor (does make a big difference), you’ll find very little in wasted movement or energy. Relaxing is a big focus, which is essential to reacting quickly to attacks and generating power. Kicks are usually below the waist, which is a good thing for real defense. It’s also a very fluid, but snappy style which relies on body awareness, making the movements unusual and often deceptive for opponents, as it reacts and changes depending on the motions of the attacker. This also allows it to defend well against attacks regardless of the specific attack, making it rather adaptable.

    As I mentioned though it has a bit of a steep learning curve before most people will become decent at general self defense with it. The relaxation thing often messes up beginners, as they either don’t do it enough or too much. Usually the later, which makes their attacks weak an ineffective, and when they try to get more power they become too stiff and rigid. Another thing that makes a huge difference is how they move in general. If you watch a newer student, they move normally until they begin an exercise or after they are attacked. An experienced student moves the same way no matter what they are doing. There is no noticeable change in the basic flow of their movements when they start a form or begin to spar, it’s always there. So when they are attacked they are already flowing, they don’t have to start doing it afterwards.

    That said Wing Chun is an example of a martial art that has seen stagnation due to tradition, and thus does have weaknesses when utilized for modern self defense. This is the reason Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kune Do, as he believed any combat effective art had to be constantly growing and changing to meet the times.

    The three biggest weaknesses as it’s traditionally taught is lack of ground fighting, trouble with multiple attackers, and possibly taking too long to neutralize a threat. And these actually all tie together. As it relies a lot on reacting to the attacker and building power and advantage over time (even if only a short one), this can lead to multiple attackers as your opponent gets help. Multiple attacks have to be taken down quickly and often brutally to neutralize them, and it will often lead to the ground.

    If your instructor focuses a lot on self defense and they are good, the last two things won’t be much of an issue, but you’ll still be boned if you get taken down to the ground. And since Mixed Martial Arts is so popular today, that’s very likely to happen in general.

    One way to take care of that is simply cross train in a ground fighting art like Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Wrestling, or Sambo.

    That said, it really depends on what type of self defense you are looking for. If you want to be able to stop a mugger or protect yourself from a gang beating, you’re probably going to need a combat oriented teacher and some manner of cross training.

    If you want to be able to handle some A-hole in a bar and look really cool doing it, Wing Chun is great by itself.

    Just remember it’ll likely take a few years before you are good enough to be effective, and by that time, you’ll probably be so smooth and relaxed that the guy will be giving you a beer instead of a hard time. ^_^

    (PS: Sorry for the length, but you asked! :P)

    #33667

    kanjiman8
    Member

    Thanks for the detailed information you have provided. Also, thanks for taking the time out to write all that up. I appreciate it. Just finished reading through it and you’ve answered a lot of questions I had. I’m still keen on doing Wing Chun but like the idea of combining it with another MA. Ideally I’d like to be able to defend myself in a one on one situation but am open to knowing how to defend myself in more dangerous scenarios.

    I’ve seen Ip Man 1 and 2. Love both of them but I thought the first one is better. More powerful story. I find videos like this interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYivNC62Plo. It fascinates me to read up and watch the history of it.

    On Jet Li’s Wiki page, I stumbled across an interesting section on his views on MA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_li#Views_on_life_and_martial_arts

    #33692

    Aikibujin
    Member

    Yeah, Donnie Yen brought a lot of attention back to Wing Chun, definitely revitalizing the student base.

    One thing to note though is that the Wing Chun depicted in those movie isn’t strictly Wing Chun, it’s of course dramatized and there’s little differences in his techniques that would make some WC practitioners say, “That’s not really Wing Chun.” But it’s pretty close really.

    As far as cross training in another MA for ground fighting goes, you really don’t need to be an expert in it, as long as you know the basics well enough to have an idea of what to do if you get taken down, that’s all you really need. And once you’ve had a few years of WC training your focus would be to get back to your feet as soon as you could, which is a good idea anyway. Multiple attackers is the weakness of modern MMA as well. They are trained to square off against one opponent and end up doing a lot of ground fighting. Doesn’t really help you if the guy has two mates kicking in your skull while that’s happening.

    The best MAs for pure self defense are the modern ones where they train in normal clothing, have no rank system, or a very down played system, and have brutal techniques that end a fight as soon as possible.

    That said, I personally wouldn’t want to train exclusively in a combat form like that. That’s more suitable for military purposes, and to a lesser degree police officers, prison guards, and maybe security guards, as they’d get into a lot of trouble if they dealt with people as efficiently as they could.

    My primary art is Aikido which these days, as far as self defense goes, focuses on dealing with an attacker in a way that actually does the least damage possible. But that’s a very ideal situation as you have to be an expert in the art to actually manage that. Like WC when a student is new to the art, 1-3 years, they’re pretty terrible at general self defense, and are actually more likely to hurt someone badly if they were successful in an actual fight, as it relies a lot on joint locks and they’d likely break someone’s bone or drop them on their head. It also uses mostly generic attack forms, so until you’re an expert, anything you aren’t used to is going to be trouble.

    I trained enough in other arts before I began in Aikido, so that it wasn’t really an issue with me. So once I had the self defense side generally covered, my focus turned to the spiritual well being/fitness side of things, as those aspects are going to be infinitely more beneficial to someone who isn’t in a high risk job, or just looking for trouble.

    When I was a late teen, my Kenpo instructor ran his own security firm, so I worked for him, and obviously self defense was something I was definitely more concerned with as a teen dealing with adults. I later used these skills in a medical capacity, dealing with patients who were out of it or psychotic. That’s what drew my attention to Aikido, as I wanted to be able to defend myself without hurting these people, as these are situations you can’t just talk through. Since I was already knowledgeable in self defense, it was a lot easier for me to adapt Aikido techniques in a way that worked without having to study it for years first.

    Of course now I have been studying it for years, but I still try to keep my self defense skills up to date, even though I never use them any more.

    So yeah, even though reading my posts before, it might seem like I am really self defense focused, I’m actually not, but I have been. As I said, you will reap much more benefits from taking an art that does focus on self defense, but also has a strong if not stronger focus on general well being and fitness. Just avoid being like those that don’t actually focus on self defense, but still believe they are very good at it, because they think any martial arts training will do it. That’s not the case.

    So once again I think Wing Chun would be a great art for you, because you already have an interest in it, it does focus a good bit on self defense, but it also has the other benefits that will be much more helpful to you in the long run. And just make sure you realize you aren’t going to be very effective in a fight until you’ve had a few good years of training with some cross training thrown in. And by that time, as I mentioned before, you probably won’t need to fight anyone anyway. The best fight outcome is the one that was avoided in the first place, and a good WC teacher will help greatly with that as well. ^_^

    #33693

    kanjiman8
    Member

    The spiritual well being/fitness side also interests me too. I know MA isn’t all about combat. Your mind can be your best weapon and best offense. I hope other people will find this information useful too. If you’d like we can talk more over email or Skype.

    #33695

    Anonymous

    Sorry to invade your private chat here, but just saying: I’ve seen Ip Man 1 and 2. The first one is definitely better

    #33697

    kanjiman8
    Member

    Tsetycoon13:
    Sorry to invade your private chat here, but just saying: I’ve seen Ip Man 1 and 2.The first one is definitely better

    No need to apologize :D. I agree, Ip Man 1 is better. Better story and fight scenes.

    #33711

    Astralfox
    Member

    That was very interesting. I’ve been training for 8 months with ‘Budo Warrior Schools’ in SW England. I can vouch for the Stroud and Gloucester dojos being primarily self defence orientated, with adaptions and interpretations for modern situations. The ground locking techniques we are taught are those that allow further action such as searching for weapons, and imediate escape (not locking oneself up to restrain someone). I have recently been thinking about complementing it with a ‘pure self defense’ MA, because style of tuition can be a little ‘friendly’.

    #33949

    Aikibujin
    Member

    No need for the private stuff T13, I was hoping others would see this too if they were interested, as it did take me a long time to write it up. :P

    Kman8, we could move to e-mail if you want, but I’m fine with the discussion here if you are.

    AF that sounds like it’s generally a pretty effective style. What do you mean by “style of tuition?”

    #33986

    Astralfox
    Member

    The ‘style of tuition’ I mentioned has many good points but in other areas it’s lacking.

    We mainly focus on kata, and there is no segregation between skill levels (no one really cares about grades much) so everyone teaches everyone, or rather we all give each other opportunities to learn. But we all know each other quite well, and can be a little complacent with one another. There are probably only three people who would actually hit you if you didn’t move, and I think that’s an important part of training.

    There is no free sparring, but we are encouraged to adapt the fundamentals of each kata to our own physical capabilities and style. So that isn’t so much of an issue, because you never know what’s coming.

    The weakness that I would most like to cover is the lack of realism in conflict. In a related matter we also lack casual clothing that would rip in certain situations.

    #34010

    Aikibujin
    Member

    Ah I see.

    Some of the best live combat training I’ve done has been with similar groups where no ones really teaching a class, we just brainstorm and discuss various scenarios and get it done. But there were also no beginners involved, as it was composed of various experienced people from different arts. The difference being is that we all made sure that anything someone came up with, we tried to poke as many holes in it as possible so we could refine it and make sure it was actually useful. So it was fairly normal to get blood on the mat, as though we weren’t trying to hurt someone, we did need to see if it would actually work against true resistance. So we’d discuss the techniques and then see if it actually worked. If it didn’t, the person trying it would quickly find that out.

    What most people think of as free sparring, usually isn’t very effective for real combat anyway. It’s better for general fitness and coordination. In realistic situations the fight should be over within a few seconds if anyone in it has decent training.

    When you say Kata, I take it you are referring to two person drills? Kata (in English) generally refers to static preset patterns, be they ones performed solo or with another person, you generally know what’s coming and what the outcome is supposed to be. What you describe seems closer to Randori, though depending on the usage in English can also mean different things (as Aikikai Aikido use the term in English to refer to multiple attacker situations), but generally the attacks are decided by the attacker without any open discussion with the defender.

    If the latter is what you mean, that can be very effective for real combat, but as you mention it is much better if the attacker is actually truly committed to the attack, so you don’t have a false sense of what to expect from a real attack. This is a big problem with standard Aikido schools in the realm of self defense. As the attacks tend to be very generic and the attacker is often more concerned with protecting themselves from the defender’s technique (Ukemi), than they are actually scoring a hit with the attack. Eventually the principles of Aikido, after many years of training, may allow the student to overcome some of these limitations, but it’s always better if they start focusing specifically on how their techniques can be adjusted to deal with situations they haven’t actually trained for, assuming they care about self defense.

    I don’t know your situation, but maybe you could meet up with some of your partners in a place outside of class, where you can still train, and see if you can focus more on the real combat side. Just keep safety in mind.

     

    #34028

    kanjiman8
    Member

    @ Aiki

    I don’t mind where we talk either. My email address is now on my profile page. This thread certainly contains a wealth of interesting and useful information. You also wrote some useful info in another thread. I’ll fav both for future reference.

    #34045

    Aikibujin
    Member

    Cool.

    Yeah this one here http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/the-3-main-reasons-i-am-learning-japanese/page/2/

    I describe a bit of my own background in MA.

    -Cheers

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