Home Forums TextFugu My two cents about 「は」 (and how it's explained).

This topic contains 4 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Brook 8 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #49347

    Brook
    Member

    (This is mainly a message to the author(s), but anyone’s welcome to join the discussion and correct me if I say anything wrong. Also, feel free to correct my Angliche.)

    I’m getting to the point where we’re taught about the particle 「は」 (season 2, chapter 6), and I have to say I don’t think the way particles in general and this one in particular are explained is the best/simplest/clearest one.

    The first given “trick” to understanding 「は」 is to do as if it was a verb, which it really isn’t (just as “is” and “are” aren’t particles), and that results in a weird, confusing two-verb… concept – you can’t call that a sentence.

    I don’t think the course would be overly complexified if you just explained that:
    - a particle is a short word or a piece of word that gives the word it’s related to a specific function, without changing its meaning;
    - 「は」 is one of these particles, that “do things to words”.

    Then you could:
    - show us that 「りんご くだもの です」 translates to “It is an apple fruit”;
    - point out that it doesn’t mean anything (because you’re still holding our hands);
    - explain that we can’t determine which word is the subject (and which one is the object) based solely on the words order, as we do in English, and that we need a little (Wink! Wink!) something to indicate what the subject of the sentence is;
    - reveal to us mesmerized kids that that’s precisely what 「は」 does when you stick it at the end of a word;
    - and finally have us write 「りんごは くだもの です」 and a bunch of other sentences.

    This is kind of how the second explanation goes, translating the subject in something that’s almost the subject in a roundabout manner, but that too results in a “clunky” translation (your words, not mine).

    What I humbly suggest your mistake might be here, is that you try making things easier to understand by sticking as much as possible to the grammar your students know (the English one), when it really isn’t necessary since the subject of a sentence is an elementary concept, and when it might actually be a good time to start getting rid of the English grammar and start thinking “Japanese”, while it’s still nice and simple.

    I mean… I have zero experience as a teacher, but my explanation is merely a description of how I understood it from the first given examples, and there’s nothing difficult about it, really. I believe I proved it can be explained in a clear manner without a single word more complicated than “subject” or “function” – I guess you can forget about the object, if you don’t want to sound too academic (and possibly boring to some people).
    Besides, it doesn’t involve making something that’s not even a word into a verb, or making a noun into a preposition + noun + pronoun. Now, maybe you’ve considered my way of explaining and your experience as a teacher showed that the other two had better results, but I really think that the sooner you’ll tell us “Japanese sentences don’t have the same structure as English ones, so suck it up and get over it while they’re three words long”, the better.

    Also, if 「です」 and friends weren’t verbs but some kind of “postpositional… phrases”(?) which only function would be to state something’s past or present attributes, I think that now would be a good time to tell. I don’t think it was said even once that 「です」 meant “to be” and I really feel like it doesn’t, but at that point of the course, some students might have gotten to that conclusion.

    So, yeah… That was me trying to help.

    Thanks for your time.

    • This topic was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  Brook.
    • This topic was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  Brook.
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    #49352

    Joel
    Member

    Honestly, Koichi kind of muddies the waters a little bit by treating “subject” and “topic” as synonyms, when in a grammatical sense, they’re not. The topic (marked by は) is what the sentence is about, while the subject (marked by が) is the doer of the verb. Often the topic IS the subject, in which case the は replaces the が, but the topic could also be the direct object (in which case the は replaces を), or the location-of-action (where は and で join forces to produce では), and so forth.

    A better “translation” for は would be “on the topic of X”, though that produces some rather clunky wording in English.

    キリンは首が長いです = on the topic of giraffes, their necks are long
    リンゴは果物です = on the topic of apples, apples are fruit (case of the subject being the topic)

    I don’t believe treating は as a verb is terribly helpful. That’s very much a case of trying to squeeze Japanese into an English S-V-O format, when Japanese is S-O-V – the verb goes at the end. It’s interesting that you also bring up postpositions, because that’s exactly what particles are in Japanese – all particles modify the word that comes before them (as opposed to English’s reliance on prepositions, which modify the word that comes after).

    As for です, it’s called the copula, which is a verb-like object that goes in a sentence where no verb is needed. The copula in English happens to be “to be”, which is why people tend to say です = to be, but note that it’s not a direct translation. です is in a part of speech all on its very own, though slightly confusingly, the more formal literary version is である, which is a verb.

    I’m vaguely hoping I’ve addressed your concerns, but it’s late and I’m tired, so I’ve probably missed the point completely. =)

    #49361

    Brook
    Member

    Nope. You nailed it. It’s quite clear when you use a sentence where the topic and the subject are distinct, and it might actually help me when I get to が.

    Concerning です, I was thinking of a concept in French grammar that kind of includes copula (which is one I didn’t know of), and for which I couldn’t find an English equivalent, let alone a Japanese one. Basically, this concept groups “to be” with verbs like “to seem”, “”to appear”, “to remain”, “to become”… But now I see that this is not what we have here.

    3くジョエルせんぱい。

    パンツ見せて貰ってもよろしいですか。
    #49363

    Joel
    Member

    There ARE groupings of verbs, but I don’t know if it’s official or just out of convenience.

    … And at the moment, I’ve clean forgotten what they were. State, movement, and… existence? Something something.

    #49364

    Brook
    Member

    I found stative verbs and dynamic verbs (sometimes referred to as “action verbs”). Verbe d’état and verbe d’action in French. See? Told you. Cousins. The verbe d’état group is much more restrictive, though.
    And they seem to be quite official in both languages, since they follow common rules.
    If only I hated litteral translation a little bit less… I could have googled “state verb”, and I wouldn’t feel as dumb as I feel right now. :)
    As for Japanese, Wikipedia indicates a list of five classes with “other possible classes, and a large amount of overlap between the classes”. This is going to be fun. :)

    パンツ見せて貰ってもよろしいですか。
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