Home Forums The Japanese Language need some guidance – help appreciated

This topic contains 30 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Narcoleptic LTD 13 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #14493

    Multany
    Member

    Hello Everyone

    I just started season 2 on textfugu, and while i still have quite a while to go on the site, i was curious what some good steps are to take with progression.

    by season 2, i have up to the stroke 3 kanij understood pretty well, and i’m starting the “Particle Wars” chapter.

    Anyways, when should i start branching out to other resources in addition to this one? Should i get my kanji/pronunciation/grammar from other places? It’s just so easy to get lost in the sea of internet resources (like being in a gym and not knowing what to work out first). Loving textfugu so far, and will continue to use it until there’s nothing left to learn – but, what have you guys done to get started on a diverse learning path?

    I always feel like i’m putting too much focus on one area of study for too long..

    hope this made sense – thank you!

    #14499

    Revenant
    Member

    You should start to have fun with japanese. Give watching native material a try. There’s J-Drama, Movies and Anime with japanese subtitles.
    You don’t have to understand a lot or anything. It’s getting used to the language and having fun with it. You may wanna avoid english subs for the purpose of learning, but it would still be better than nothing at all in this direction.

    Here you shall find a lot of inspiration:

    http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/all-japanese-all-the-time-ajatt-how-to-learn-japanese-on-your-own-having-fun-and-to-fluency

    Keep up reviewing and studying at your pace tho! Don’t get overwhelmed by the vast possibilities.

    #14500

    D-Rock
    Member

    I love the other resources Koichi suggests. It’s great to have a diverse study area, and I think you should get some physical books as well. Not whole other textbooks, but many great Kanji books are always onsale at my town library! Apps are great if you have an iPod. YouTube has a series called “everyday Kanji” which I love! Make sure you stick with your own pace though. Hope that helped. -Derek

    #14503

    Revenant
    Member

    If you wanna learn the meaning and how to write all the relevant kanji (3020 currently, but only 2100 is required), I can only recommend remembering the kanji by james heisig.
    PM me if you’re interested and I could tell you the differences to textfugus approach.

    #14504

    Multany
    Member

    Thanks i appreciate it guys!

    D-Rock yeah i noticed the resources page and was thinking about giving them a look. soo many choices though!

    Revenant, i am very interested in RTK, and was curious about the differences from textfugu, because i heard they were.. -kind of- similar.

    and i can’t for the life of me figure out how to PM people on here.. i’ve been to your profile and whatnot but haven’t seen the “PM” or “message” link or anything lol

    #14505

    Revenant
    Member

    Yes, apparently there is no such feature available just yet.

    What RTK does is taking the smallest possible elements that make up kanji, much like the radicals, and make “primitives” out of them. Primitives are similar but not the same as radicals. Depending on their position in a particular kanji they can take on different nuances of meaning. For example the kanji for month 月 can (when used as a primitive) be “flesh” or “part of the body”, depending on where it is positioned.

    You then take apart a new kanji to be learned and create a story around it, which can be as small as a little pun. This story always contains all the primitives used in the kanji, which itself is given a meaning here called “keyword”, because this meaning is not always 100% what the kanji really is used for. This is due to having over 2000 kanji, and to keep every keyword unique.

    These stories are as vivid and weird as it gets, so your brain will remember which primitives to assemble when seeing a particular keyword. If you see the kanji for near for example, you could use this story (or your own, or one of many others provided in the community which formed around this book) “The end is near. The *axe*-murderer is waiting for you on the *road*…” where *axe* and *road* are the two primitives making up the kanji for near. You will be able to perfectly write this out correctly without a second thought.

    The only thing RTK doesn’t do is teaching any readings. You won’t learn on or kun yomi!

    This is to be picked up later, when you learn vocabulary by learning whole sentences using a word with a kanji in it. You then learn how to read it in context, as doing this will be much more easier than ever before: All the kanji will be something for you. No scribbles, you know all the forms, plus a vague meaning.

    RTK does only what it claims: Teaching the writing and meaning of some 2100 kanji characters (all the yoyo-kanji!). FInishing this book means you’ll never see an unfamiliar kanji within reason (newspaper, official texts; not necessarly fiction).

    • This reply was modified 13 years, 3 months ago by  Revenant.
    #14509

    Multany
    Member

    hmmmm ok, this sounds pretty interesting….

    i do have a few questions though (not sure if you’re able to answer them all)..

    first off, how long would something like finishing the books take? I understand everyone goes at their own pace.. but i mean.. is it a several-year in the making endeavor? totally fine if it is.. it IS another language, after all. or, is it some super fast miracle technique that only takes a few months? (generally speaking)

    second off, does this method emphasize drawing the actual kanji characters? textfugu doesn’t have you write up the kanji, but would i have to memorize stroke order, etc?

    and lastly, can i just do this in the background of all my other learning? like, should i try to blow through it all first before tackling other stuff?

    oh oh also, will i be fine not learning the on’yomi and kun’yomi? if i don’t know how it -sounds-, i’ll probably have to backtrack and figure out what they actually sound like, right?

    sorry for the barrage of questions.. haha. i’m just kind of hooked by the mouth now.. i just need to be reeled in .. so to speak.

    Thanks!

    • This reply was modified 13 years, 3 months ago by  Multany.
    #14511

    It took me about 2 months or so, but it depends how much time in the day you have (I’m unemployed XD).

    Yes, all the emphasis is on drawing the characters. Memorising stroke order is no big deal – there are a few set rules like left->right then top->bottom, and Heisig walks you through all new stroke order patterns as you come to them. After a while, the stroke order rules become second nature. While there are obviously a few kanji with irregular stroke orders (which Heisig points out anyway), you should soon be able to guess a radical’s/primitive’s stroke order without actually looking it up :P

    While I halted all my other studying to get it out of the way, it’s entirely up to you. It can get a little tedious after a while, but I was seeing the results appear so rapidly that I was pretty determined to keep going :) Also, Koichi was being/still is slow with lesson updates, so I had to do SOMETHING ;)

    What I’m doing just now is learning the readings through TextFugu’s kanji section. They aren’t TOTALLY necessary, but can sometimes be handy in remembering vocab. Sometimes you can just pick up readings from seeing enough words that contain them. Basically, don’t worry about the readings – the benefits from learning how to recognise kanji outweigh not learning readings COMPLETELY haha Also, don’t bother with RTK 2 – it’s the one that deals with readings, but has had some pretty bad reviews.

    #14513

    Multany
    Member

    yeah i’ve been scoping out AJATT and i’m liking what this guy is saying… though, he’s pretty much saying drop EVERYTHING (language classes – even the grammar points that you would likely learn on here) .. so that’s kind of hard to deal with.

    and i just quit my job so i could literally study japanese full time until august 24th (it’s really all i want to do, and i was quitting for school anyways) so i literally have a month of NOTHING going on.. i’m gonna dive in. he says roughly 25/kanji a day will get you three months.. if i go crazy and cramcramcram… who knows how much i’ll get done.

    i suppose i’ll be dropping my studies on the other things like vocab for now and plow through RTK, if it’s supposed to be more beneficial. the guy says to go from RTK 1, right to 3.. so yeh

    and again, i’m definitely taking a bunch of japanese classes during college, so it’ll be interesting to balance everything out. i’m definitely not going to be able to have fun learning if my school teaches with the same archaic methods that are supposed to be typical of what i’m about to start..

    • This reply was modified 13 years, 3 months ago by  Multany.
    #14517

    Multany
    Member

    OH – also, something i’ve noticed is that each time i find a cool, new, method that is supposed to work good and is different from the rest of the pack.. it always seems to undermine what i was doing/planning on doing before.

    textfugu undermines traditional classes, AJATT undermines textfugu.. traditional classes would appear to undermine the other two..

    sooo many choices!

    #14521

    Revenant
    Member

    AJATT is basically saying that you should learn Japanese like a little kid did. He claims there is no grammar, because if you learn sentences naturally you’ll “feel” if soemthing sounds right or wrong.
    As for your mother tongue, you’re probably aware of the grammar rules, but when trying to say something, you won’t think about grammar, it will just come out.

    TextFugu is great for laying a solid foundation. What AJATT can add to it for you is a lot of listening comprehension, developing a feel for the actual spoken language, how things get abbreviated and simplified in casual speech like with out own mother tongues.

    RTK can take you 3 months to a year, if you’re determined. If you go with 25 new kanji EVERY DAY, you will be done in 3 months of time. Keep in mind tho, that you’ll also stockpile a BUNCH OF REVIEWS, which are very important to keep track of. You have to do your reviews to get the kanji into long-term memory. With 25 new kanji a day and all the reviews, you’ll be pretty busy.

    Don’t try to rush the book, because the weight of the reviews will drag you down and make you give up sooner or later.

    You don’t have to go AJATT 100%, take the parts that are good for you – motivation, having fun with what you do and not just “studying”, building listening comprehension and appreciating what you have learned already. Breaking mental barriers of “I will never get it” or “I’m too old for this”.

    AJATT says “there be no grammar”, which is true for your native language… you don’t think of possesive particles when making sentences or speaking, it’s TOO DAMN SLOW to do so. You rather wanna be learning Japanese to the point where it flows out of you by itself. Learning grammar can help this process as well as learning/copying good japanese like a child would do.

    if you start with RTK, go with your own pace. If you rush it and feel like quitting after a month, you’ll get less done than when you took it leisurely, but daily. Set a minimum number to study EVERY DAY. You can do more, if you feel like it. But make that number small. Like 5-15 at max. If you feel energetic, do 25 or 30, or even 50 somedays. But keep them reviews going.

    Cheers.

    PS: You need to have fun with your kanji, have fun remembering and creating stories. Sometimes you have to ditch everything and just rote memorize some weird kanji or give them a small, but memorable pun story.
    Get yourself a nice DIN A 5 textblock with squares and write your reviewd kanji down, fill the sheets with kanji. One day, you’ll have the whole block filled and feel proud.
    I already have over 9000 reviews under my belt and approx. 1600 kanji down.

    • This reply was modified 13 years, 3 months ago by  Revenant.
    #14527

    Definitely get squared paper for practising kanji – I find squares a little bit bigger than English letters to be good, but you might wanna go bigger as you are just starting out. I started off slow, but by the end, I was doing 60 kanji most days. One time, I did 100 kanji/day for a couple of days but then the reviews became unbearable haha.

    @Revenant: I’ve always been a little confused by the AJATT “sentence mining” method, even after reading his site haha. If there’s to be no proper grammar learning, how will you make any sense of the sentences? I think I’d like to get a little more intermediate on the grammar front before I use that method for getting new vocab.

    The way he writes kinda puts me off his method a bit, whether it’s useful or not haha – it’s like he’s saying “if you don’t live and die for Japanese, you are worthless, will never learn *anything* and don’t deserve to be here”. A bit of an exaggeration, I guess, but he’s not that tolerant of people that aren’t as engrossed in the language as he is/was.

    #14528

    Revenant
    Member

    Well, of course, he’s an elitist prick and loves downplaying himself :D
    He’s for going “all the way” of course, that’s the point of his method. No pain , no gain. But instead of pain, it’s having fun in japanese. Playing “winnable games”.
    You don’t learn grammar rules ,but you get a feeling of what sounds right when and where, which is essentially the same but faster in the rbain.

    #14530

    Kaona
    Member

    IT’S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sorry Revenant, I just had to.

    #14535

    Revenant
    Member

    It’s okay, Kaona-chan. It’s okay…
    “Member Stats
    Flashcard Count : 1677
    Total Reviews : 10476
    Joined : 9 Oct 2010
    Last Login: less than 5 seconds ago”

    But it’s true :D

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