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OK, in my defense I’ve read Koichi’s article on this, and I thought I understood it, but there sounds like contradictory information in here. I went to outside sources, and ended up with the same problem. I checked the comments of Koichi’s post, and people asked the same question, but I didn’t find a reply with an answer. I would have searched for the forum, but there doesn’t seem to be a search function. (I’m having a rough time with this one.) ;)
So my question, excluding the many exceptions when do you use Onyomi and when do you use Kunyomi. From what I understand in Koichi’s post:
“In general, you’ll use on’yomi when a kanji is sitting there all on its own (i.e. when there is no hiragana attached to it), or when a word is made up of a multi-kanji compound (this is called jukugo). Usually when you see a multi-kanji compound word, it has originally come from China.”
OK, so kanji by itself or doubled up kanji is on’yomi. but…
“In general, you’ll use kun readings when a kanji has hiragana attached to it (though this isn’t always the case), or when a kanji’s sitting out there on its own.”
When a kanji is by itself or has hiragana then it’s kun’yomi, but earlier we saw if it was by itself we’d use on’yomi.
I’m sure I’m misreading something, but what I can only guess.
Sure I’ve answered this question at least 3 times on this forum :P To save time, here’s my answer in a nutshell: “It really doesn’t matter, don’t worry about it.”
If you want a longer answer, flick through a few pages of threads: I’m sure somebody asked the same/a similar question not too long ago, but I can’t remember the thread name or when it was :S Damn lack of search feature >.< I mean, you can search using Google, but it just takes longer.
EDIT: I thought I’d just have a look for it myself, can’t remember exactly what I said haha
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/onyomi-and-kunyomi/ – here you go :)
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/%E5%8A%9B-kunyomi-reminder/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/trouble-kanji-context/ (YOU ALREADY MADE A THREAD ABOUT THIS!)
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/some-kanjiradical-questions/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/easy-way-to-distinguish-between-on-yomi-and-kun-yomi/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/woah-slow-down/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/kanji-help/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/question-about-learning-vocab/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/kanji-readings/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/kunyomionyomi/
http://www.textfugu.com/bb/topic/onyomi-kunyomi/There, that’s everything I can find on the matter, so if my original answer is unacceptable for some reason (and I don’t see why it should be), have a perusal of these and come to your own conclusions :P This doesn’t include anything from the old forum because sadly that has passed away ;_;
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
MisterM2402 [Michael].
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
I did, but I was asking, at least in my mind, a slightly different question at the time.
You gave me a good lol though, thanks, I needed that after today. :)
Edit:
I do apologize for being confusing between my two posts. Part of the reason I posted a second time is I started to notice that I kept bombing kanji readings. I was often getting them flipped, and not knowing when to do one or the other. The other conversation made me feel OK enough with that, but when I read a page on Textfugu where Koichi encouraged me to explore my weaknesses, and take action now to overcome them I realized I was still doing poorly with kanji. This caused me to want to double check my understanding between the two even more closely. After searching, and reading, and searching, and reading I felt like I was missing a key simple rule that clarified the two. I thought I had, at one time, read a clear simple rule, but couldn’t remember where.
Anyway, that’s my long rambly excuse. I’ll check those links out, and hopefully never ask a similar question again. I really do appreciate your effort to help me. :)
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
hey.
Man, I just need to really listen to you guys. I think this post both gives me the clarity I wanted, and supports what you guys keep trying to tell me:
From @Tsetycoon13
“The official rule is that if there is JUKUGO, or compound-kanji (at least 2 kanji NEXT to each other), both kanji use the ON’YOMI.
You use the KUN’YOMI when the kanji is BY ITSELF. You also use the KUN’YOMI when hiragana FOLLOWS the kanji to generate the meaning of the word.
HOWEVER, EXCEPTIONS are ALL OVER THE PLACE. A kanji by itself may favor the on’yomi, and two kanji in jukugo may favor the kun’yomi. A jukugo may even have on’yomi for one kanji and kun’yomi for the other!
I usually try to just know the actually word in the first place, and then understand how the reading of the kanji works. I’d say that despite these rules, at least 45% of all words have these reading exceptions.
Good luck!”So if the exceptions didn’t exist it sounds like the only time you’d use an on’yomi is if you have compound kanji. Is that correct?
I’m still relatively early in my Kanji learning. Just started level 4 Kanji here on TF. Tsetycoon’s explanation is a very good one. Michael has also explained it thoroughly.
—————————————-“So if the exceptions didn’t exist it sounds like the only time you’d use an on’yomi is if you have compound kanji. Is that correct?”
Yes, but unfortunately they do exist. It’s just something you have to learn from experience. Also remember numbers by themselves use on’yomi instead of kun’yomi.
There’s also times where a Kanji doesn’t use either the on’yomi or kun’yomi and is something completely different. e.g. 大人（おとな）＝ Adult
This example was given on another thread 大した（たいした）＝ Considerable, Great. It’s actually two sepearate words. At first glance you’d think it’d use the kun’yomi reading as there’s hiragana following the kanji but it doesn’t. Tsetycoon also kindly explained it “した is the past tense form of the verb する, so 大した literally means ‘done big’, which translates to ‘considerable or great.’”
The more you hear a word or see it written, the easier it will be to know it’s reading.
When a kanji is all on it’s own with no others (jukugo) or with any attached hiragana (okurigana), then then kun readin is used. Or maybe it’s the on reading…
If the exceptions didn’t exist, it would certainly have to be one or the other, but exceptions do exist. In fact, they exist in such abundance as to render the rule (whichever is actually correct) functionally meaningless. To me its sort of asking if zebras are white with black stripes or black with white stripes. (…)
@ Kyle
Interesting comparison. I agree that the rule is almost meaningless. I try not to refer to it too much, and instead just learn vocab straight up.I agree that you should work on your weaknesses, but this isn’t a weakness to worry about :P
I was actually surprised at how many threads I found regarding this topic. I might just shoot Koichi an email and tell him he needs to make this point clearer in the book, seeing as so many people are stuck. Maybe. If I have time.
AnonymousNo offense to Koichi (he is a VERY TALENTED person though), but I don’t like the way he said how ‘when a kanji is sitting on it’s own you use on’yomi’. From what I know, you use the kun’yomi when the kanji is alone or with hiragana, and the on’yomi for jukugo (compound kanji). The on’yomi might be used alone in exceptions, like numbers. And, many people say that it’s better to be familiar with the vocab word itself as a whole than how to read it.
This question has been asked literally hundreds of times! And I’m not bashing you for it, but I don’t think this kind of topic in Japanese is difficult or mind-boggling at all, and somehow people just overcomplicated it.
Edit: Ah, thanks for quoting me, Hey!-
This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
Things I learned from watching Anime #2897. In Kaleido Star the protagonist Sora does her best in the spirit of “try it rather than think about it.”
So sometimes you need to worry about stuff less and everything will work out in the end if you try your hardest.
When you’re new to Japanese and just learning, a lot of the answers are just to keep learning and you get the hang of it by learning more, it would be really nice if there were solid rules to follow or some easy way to learn it all, but theres no such thing as something thats easy.
But thats the point we choose to learn Japanese, not because it’s easy but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win.がんばって
Thanks Andrew, I think you’re right.
After reading the responses I think you are all right. I wanted to edit my original post to show my summary of my findings. Both the direct simple answer to my question, and the philosophies and experiences you guys have shared. Sadly, the edit button isn’t appearing on my screen at the moment?
I think the edit button is a time limited offer, edit now to avoid disappointment! :D
I hope the new update will enable us to edit any of our posts and not just the most recent ones. There’s also a couple other things we need such as being able to view any users posts and not just the threads they make, amount of users online, etc.
I’d love to see search get added. Might reduce the number of threads on this or other popular topics. :)
There is a search. It’s a bit hidden, though – click the profile link down the bottom, then “view threads” or “view posts” – the search box will be in the top right. And yes, that searches the whole forum, not just your posts.
Getting a little bored of explaining that, though. Maybe I should just tell people to search for threads where I’ve already explained it. =P
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This reply was modified 12 years, 6 months ago by
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