Home Forums The Japanese Language Pronouncing the が column?

This topic contains 12 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  MomoIro 11 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #38675

    Bex
    Member

    Just a quick question about something I stumbled across whilst learning the words from my passion list (films and cinema, btw). I was trying to get down the pronunciation for ‘film’ – えいが and  ’drama’ – げきえいが , and used the dictionary on japanesepod101 to listen to how they should be said using the sound clips for each word. What stuck me was that the words in the が column were pronounced not as ‘ga’,or ‘gi’ etc., but instead a a really nasal, ‘na’, sort of sound. I tried to replicate this sound, but Its difficult, and completely different to what I’ve been learning. I went back to textfugu, and as I thought, the dakuten pronunciations in season 1 are a really clear ‘g’ sound, not the nasal ‘n’ sound.

    Which is the pronunciation I should try to replicate? Is the nasal ‘n’ sound more of a dialectic thing? Would I still be understood by saying the clear ‘g’ sound instead?

    Lastly, are there any other good online japanese dictionaries that give me the right pronunciation? I’m worried that I’m mispronouncing the words I found for my passion list. For example, for long vowel sounds such as えい, I’ve heard them pronounced as both one long え sound, and as a え with a slight い intonation at the end. I also don’t know if certain characters are silent or not.

     

    Thank for your time, I know its a massive post!

     

    #38684

    Joel
    Member

    On が – Tokyo accent adds a slight nasal sound when a が-line character comes in the middle of a word. Something like “nga”. It’s annoying to those of us who are just trying to learn the language, but people aren’t going to run screaming if you don’t do it. They’ll still understand you.

    On えい – it represents a long-E sound most of the time, but there are words where it’s pronounced as written; E-I. For example 丁寧 (ていねい) = “teinei”, not “teenee”.

    On silent characters – characters are never silent, but you can often find う-sounds and し being crushed to near-silence or truncated, for example です spoken as “des” or the すけ male name ending as “ske” or おかし (candy) spoken as “okash”.

    #38686

    Yamada
    Member

    Something like “nga”.

    So would you recommend trying to imitate this variation of が or to just pronounce it as it looks (because I too have run into this)?

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38687

    Joel
    Member

    I wouldn’t. I don’t, either. But then, I’m not a linguist. =)

    #38694

    Bex
    Member

    Thanks for your help guys! I’ve been looking up more about this since posting, and it seems as though the ‘ng’ sound is traditional and more ‘proper’ and ‘regal’, but more and more younger people just say ‘g’ instead. Which sounds good to me – I find the ng sound so difficult to pronounce.

    #38702

    The people who do the audio for Core 6000 seem to lean more towards “nga”; since I’ve done so many of those flash cards, that’s the way I’ve come to say it too. It’s not really that difficult to do – just think of saying words like “ring” and “sing” – it’s like you’re holding that final “ng” sound, and then saying “a”. Also, even though the Core 6k people generally say it more like that, they seem use the other pronunciation for some words, so really, it shouldn’t matter what way you say it.

    “On えい – it represents a long-E sound most of the time, but there are words where it’s pronounced as written; E-I. For example 丁寧 (ていねい) = “teinei”, not “teenee”.” – Not sure how correct that is. When I’ve heard the word, as far as I can remember it’s just been with standard long vowels. Some people seem to pronounce long vowels with hints of the “extension kana” coming in at the end.

    In the end, pronunciation is most easily figured out just by listening to natives speak. If they pronounce it some way, then that’s a way it can be pronounced. If you hear lots of people pronounce it a different way, then maybe that is a more common/”standard” pronunciation. One thing I’ll say though, if you’re comparing the pronunciation between Koichi and actual native speakers, side with the natives – while he obviously has more experience than you in the language, he’s learned/learning it just like you, so he’s not going to be perfect in every respect, if you get me.

    #38706

    Joel
    Member

    Not sure how correct ["teinei"] is.

    Well, my lecturers made a specific point of mentioning it, so I’m fairly confident. Of course, they’re pretty much all from Kyoto, so who knows what sort of backwoods accent they’re giving us? =P Also, My Japanese Coach on the DS pronounces it like that too.

    #38707

    Fair enough – it’s not like I’ve heard *everyone* pronounce it, anyway :P  At the end of the day, people pronounce things differently to other people, just the way it is. Just think of the breadth of accents in the UK (or US if you’re that side of the pond). Imagine a Japanese native learning English, and trying to judge which is the correct pronunciation by comparing people from Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland :D

    #38714

    Bex
    Member

    Thanks Michael – thinking of it as ‘ng’ as in sing helps a lot. I want to pronounce everything as well as possible, even if I find it harder than just saying everything with a sharp ‘g’. Does the ‘ng’ pattern only apply to ‘ga’, or does it apply to the whole ‘ga’ column? Like ‘nge’, ‘ngu’ etc.? So far I’ve only heard ‘ga’ pronounced in this way, but I really havent listened to much vocab so far.

    Also, which core 6000 flashcards do you use? Is it an anki deck, or something introduced in textfugu or wanikani?

    • This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by  Bex.
    • This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by  Bex.
    #38728

    “Does the ‘ng’ pattern only apply to ‘ga’, or does it apply to the whole ‘ga’ column?”
    Y’know, that’s something I was mulling over when I was writing that last reply haha. Just trying to think of examples. Thinking about the example sentence audio that goes with Core 6k: きぎょう and げき/しげき/げきじょう get pronounced “ki-ngyou” and “ngeki/shi-ngeki/ngeki-jou”, whereas ぐうぜん gets pronounced “guuzen” with the hard g. Bear in mind the audio for Core 6k is recorded by at least 3 different people, though the examples still show it can vary, that there’s no set way to pronounce the ‘g’ sound. I get that you want to pronounce it “correctly” sooner rather than later, but it’s one of these things that you just get an ear for and you pick up.

    Yeah, Core 6k is an Anki deck. It’s a list of the 6000 most frequently used words (can’t remember where they got the data for that). There was a flashcard site a while ago called smart.fm that was the SRS of choice for TextFugu when it first started – which was switched to Anki once smart.fm became a paid service called iKnow – and that’s where Core 6k originated, but some kind folks spent lots of time and effort converting it to a free deck on Anki. Should be almost top of the list if you have a look for it in Anki’s shared decks section, since it’s so popular. It was smart.fm’s main attraction back in the day, I think. It used to be split into 2 parts: Core 2000 and Core 6000, but now I think they changed it to Core 1000, Core 2000, etc, so if you’re looking for it, it might be under different names.

    #38731

    Joel
    Member

    whereas ぐうぜん gets pronounced “guuzen” with the hard g.

    That’s probably because comes at the front of the word – as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, the nasal G only happens when it comes in the middle of a word.

    #38733

    …You’re right. Just went and had a look through my deck, and sure enough, げき has a ‘hard g’ while えんげき has the ‘nasal g’. Granted it was different speakers, but on comparing it with every other word that contains 劇, the pattern holds (every word containing 劇 being:劇、演劇、劇場、悲劇、喜劇). Why didn’t I notice that before…? Guess I’ve been saying it wrong all this time then XD Still, like you said, that’s the Tokyo accent. Others may be similar or may vary (most likely).

    Everyone just listen to Joel from now on; he knows far too much :P

    #38804

    MomoIro
    Member

    I’m going to weigh in and say that I strongly suggest mastering and using the weirder, less comfortable sounds.  The reason is because they didn’t evolve in isolation; they represent a mouth-shape and “accent” that reflects in the entire language.  The nasal passage closes off before pronouncing a mid-word “g.”  To ignore that is to refuse to hear many other places where the nasal passage closes off that aren’t immediately apparent to a non-native speaker.  The more you force yourself to do the nasal “g,” the closer to perfect pronunciation you get with regard to the entire language.  You’ll hear and repeat it in other places.

    In other words, it’s not like they stuck a weird sound in there just to confuse you.  It’s natural for them because that’s the way their mouth works when they speak.  Language learners should try and capture that as a whole.

    • This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by  MomoIro.
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