Home Forums The Japanese Language Whats up with に in this example.

This topic contains 13 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Joel 11 years, 10 months ago.

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  • #38645

    Yamada
    Member

    ” おとうさん に 1万円 を かしました。”
    O.k. so could someone clarify に a bit more? I thought it was only used for time/movement, but as is in this example, is it also used with numbers too? Is it also ambiguous like が and は or is it a bit more concrete in usage? Helps would be aprreciated :D.

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38646

    Yamada
    Member

    (For the sake of not making another post)
    [Also, ummm... ] I was wondering…. Is やがた or something mean ‘good’ or something after doing something hard for feeling relieved from potentially bad news? I’ve heard this before in anime but Want clarification (also, I looked up やがた and jisho and it only gave me names, which is why I am asking because I know not what the kana are :( )

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38647

    Yamada
    Member

    A third question (I know, I am a bit impatient kinda)…. with がんばてください (I heard from some more advanced Japanese speakers that this means roughly ‘please persevere’ and is used as a ending comment when leaving someone)…. On jisho, I saw that it was がんばる, which is the verb ‘to persevere’… I know こういちさん will probably talk about it later, but I would like to know earlier on, what it the ”て” conjugation? Why is it used? Also do I have everything right with this so far?

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38648

    Joel
    Member

    1. Particles are post-positions, not pre-positions – it’s not に+一万円 but おとうさん+に. に marks the indirect object of the verb – in this case, the verb is 貸す, to lend, meaning the indirect object is the recipient of the lending. “I lent my father ten thousand yen.” In any sentence, the verb is the most important word – if particles aren’t making sense, look at the verb.

    2. よかった. Past tense of いい meaning “good” – when いい conjugates, it reverts to its older form よい.

    3. I’m pretty sure the ~て form of verbs and adjectives is explained somewhere. Basically it’s a way of writing “and” for verbs and adjectives, among other things. こういちさんは日本に行って、たくさん写真を撮りました – Koichi went to Japan and took lots of photos. このステーキは安くて、おいしいです – this steak is cheap and delicious. The conjugation of verbs into the ~て form is the same as the ~た form, which is something else that I’m pretty sure is there. It’s also often used for attaching auxiliary verbs.

    The ~てください form is one such auxiliary verb, and one you’ll see a lot. It’s a way of making a polite request. For example, ここで吸わないでください – please don’t smoke here.

     

     

    On a side note, do you want to try replying to some of your threads to show you understand, so it doesn’t seem like we’re tossing all these helpful posts into the void? I have to admit, I’m starting to feel a little like I’m being taken for granted…

    #38654

    Yamada
    Member

    1. Particles are post-positions, not pre-positions – it’s not に+一万円 but おとうさん+に. に marks the indirect object of the verb – in this case, the verb is 貸す, to lend, meaning the indirect object is the recipient of the lending. “I lent my father ten thousand yen.”

    Why cannot を be used instead of に? Is it because, like you said, “に marks the indirect object of the verb” while を does not?
    [edit:] I think I get it, but I just want to be sure.

    • This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by  Yamada. Reason: see"[edit:]"
    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38656

    Joel
    Member

    を marks the direct object, which is the thing having the verb done to it. In this case, it’s the ten thousand yen that’s being lent, so that’s the direct object.

    Indirect objects typically only occur for verbs like give, receive, send, borrow, lend, et cetera – I can’t honestly think of any dissimilar examples aside from causative verbs (which Koichi might add to TextFugu someday) but maybe there are some and I’m just not calling them to mind. In all of these cases, the indirect object is the person who is not the doer of the verbs (since the doer is the subject). I can’t really think of a better way to phrase that, but basically the indirect object is the recipient in giving verbs, and the giver in receiving verbs.

    Examples:

    I gave money to Fred – I is the subject, Fred is the indirect object, and money is the direct object.

    I received money from Fred – exactly the same: I is the subject, Fred the indirect object and money the direct object.

    Fred gave money to me – in this case, Fred is the subject, me/I is the indirect object, and money is still the direct object.

    Note that in both of the second and third sentences, the money is going from Fred to me – which one of us is the subject depends on which verb is being used. It’s the same for Japanese.

    English actually has the subjective and objective cases for words, because some differ depending on where they come in the sentence – who/whom, I/me, him/he, et cetera – but in the real world, people think about it so rarely that few people know which is which – the general confusion over who/whom is the perfect example. In Japanese there’s no cases, just particles – が for the subject, を for the direct object, and に for the indirect object.

     

    Edit: I guess the tl;dr version is: you can kind of think of it as another application of に meaning direction – I gave money to Fred, I received money from Fred.

    • This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by  Joel.
    #38660

    vanandrew
    Member

    You’re doing a top job.

    #38661

    Yamada
    Member

    I have another question which is unrelated to the others, would “いいえ、わたしの本をよみませんでした.” Mean roughly, “No, I did not read my book.” (I was trying to change it from “いいえ、本をよみませんでした” ‘No, I did not read the book’ to “my book”).
    Is this correct?

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38663

    Joel
    Member

    Yep, that’s correct.

    #38681

    Yamada
    Member

    Ok, I have a question about kanji (I am a little iffy on thisthis), based on an example: “お下がリください!” I was wondering, what reading would 下 use? Would it use the on, か、or the kun した or would it be something else (さがり/下がり, a conjugation of 下がる?)
    Basically, in everyday sentences in japanese chrono trigger, what reading would kanii use most of the time (excluding exceptions)?

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38682

    Joel
    Member

    お下がりください = very formal request form of 下がる, so さ・がる is the reading to use here.

    Typical rule of thumb when picking readings is on’yomi when the character’s part of a kanji compound, and kun’yomi when it’s standing on its own, or with okurigana attachments. Other than the exceptions, of course. =)

    Okurigana is hiragana tacked onto the end of verbs and adjectives which are used for conjugated endings – or example, the がる in 下がる. They are very helpful for determining readings – the only reading that 下 has when followed by がる is さ. It’s not a flawless method, but it’s pretty reliable more often than not. One exception is 入る, which can be read as both はいる and いる. Kanji followed by okurigana always uses the kun’yomi without fail – it’s the exception to the “every rule has exceptions” rule. =P (In before “but, Xする”: する is a verb in its own right, not okurigana.)

    Fun side note: ください is also another use of 下 – it’s usually written in kana, but when kanji is used, it’s 下さい. =D

    #38704

    @Joel: Wow, you’re really committed to helping people here :P You don’t have to you know, if you want to take a break. Let his questions go unanswered, or at least get answered by someone else.

    @Yamada: It’s ok to not understand everything. And like Joel says, it would be nice to give more acknowledgement/thanks than just saying “Ok, next question…”. Joel spends a lot of time and effort coming up with great replies; it’s not very nice to take advantage of his good nature like that, hopping from question to question :P

    #38708

    Yamada
    Member

    @Joel
    I am sorry for the inconsiderable behavior on my part….
    I really appreciate all of your answers to my questions– thank you.

    毎秒は一世一代。
    #38709

    Joel
    Member

    I don’t mind helping – I mean, it’s pretty much the only study I’ve done all summer. =P I just like to know I’m actually helping, and not just confusing matters further. =)

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