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If you’re only reading this in email I edited the above post because I realized I left out some possibly useful details. You won’t see that update in email, so you’ll need to visit the boards for the changes.
I follow. Yes, that can be tricky at first. I think it’s mostly about how you think about the content on these pages.
When you look at the kanji page think of the kanji as a character, and nothing more. (Sort of like A, B, or C.) Now when you think of the words at the bottom you think of them as just that words. They have characters, but instead of A, B, or C they have kanji. The nice part about kanji is it’s usually a clue to the meaning of the word.
That’s how I think of them at least. Once I started thinking of them in that way the better I started doing with them. I’d also sometimes use mnemonics when the words had too similar meanings for my comfort level. Also, I know all of that goes without saying, but I found the act of saying that to myself, and then studying with that in mind had a positive effect. It’s obvious, but the brain wants you act with that in mind the whole time. The act of thinking “This is what I’m doing” has a positive effect I’ve found.
For example I think:
“The on’yomi 入 sounds like にゅう.”
“The word 入る is はいる because Ru says “hi” when he enters the room.”
“The word 入れる sounds like いれる.”
Another guy I know who is much much better at Japanese than I am doesn’t even bother with kanji. His whole strategy is to just learn the words. It’s similar to saying “instead of learning all of the sounds “A” can make in English just learn each word, and you’ll learn how “A” sounds in each context. (It’s not the exact same as that, but it’s close.)
This is a pro/con thing again. The trick will be experimenting with various tricks until you find the one that works best for you. I found that it took a bit of time before I had my system down, and every once in awhile I still tweak it.
You probably noticed the first two or three seasons of Textfugu Koichi really focuses on teaching you how to learn. There’s a reason behind that. To learn Japanese best you’ll have to dedicate a certain amount of time to always improving your process. Don’t spend too much time doing it, and don’t spend too little.
Did that help give you a direction or a sense of what to do next?
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This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by
hey.
What about kanji is challenging for you? Perhaps myself or someone else had a similar experience, and can offer insight.
It dramatically varies from day to day. I have a spreadsheet that I use track my studies in. I don’t track time, but instead track tasks. If I’ve done a reasonable “minimal” amount or more I put an X in that column for that day. This serves to help me know what I’ve been focusing on, slacking on, and to keep me honest with myself. It also helps me when I think “How should I study next?”
That said, some day I barely get in the minimal amount of studying I like to get in on any single day. Some days I study six hours not including passive listening. If I include passive listening then it’s more. However, that’s an extreme outlier. You can’t maintain that pace, but if you can get a day like that in every once in awhile, then awesome!
My average day is probably 45 minutes to 90 minutes. That does not include passive listening. Some days I don’t passive listen at all. Other days I’ll do it for 2-3 hours.
The long term goal is to keep making progress, and not burn yourself out. If you get 30 minutes a day every day you probably won’t burn out. You won’t master Japanese in a year, but you’ll still be doing it in a year. Only you will know what pace will burn you out. Hint: You’ll find out the hard way. ;) If that happens, take a few days to put in a minimum amount only. If you need a few more than that don’t feel bad, just keep doing that minimum amount.
Also, how I define minimum amount changes based on what I’m focusing on, or trying to cover. It always includes doing all of my Anki for the day. However, it usually has a few other tasks as well, like posting to lang-8, tutoring homeword (outside of Textfugu), etc.
Also, after all of that is said, don’t compare yourself to others. You’re going to learn in your own way, and your own pace. I have a full time job, and other responsibilities. If I was still in school I could easily study another hour or more a day, and I’d be further along. Another guy might be a language natural, or a have super high tolerance for not burning out. Who knows what factors help or hurt the other people. In a way who cares? It’s the factors that impact you that matter. Figure those out, and work with them, or around them.
That’s my thoughts at least.
That’s pretty good to know.
I’ve pretty much abandoned looking things up by radical though because I find it takes a lot longer, and tends to yield less useful results.
I think here’s a good time to tell the new learners that everyone is going to learn Japanese differently, and what works for one person might not work as well for another. That is, part of learning Japanese is learning what works best for you.
For me personally, I tried looking kanji up by radicals for a long time, using various resources, and I never got fast at it. Sometimes I could spend 15 minutes, and still not find the kanji I wanted. Typically it would take a couple of minutes per kanji. The longest I’ve ever taken to look up a kanji by stroke order is about 30 seconds. Usually it’s about 5 seconds.
However, if you’re getting that kind of turn around with radicals, then you have the added advantage of not needing electronic tools.
Another advantage of doing it by stroke order is you actually learn to write the kanji using pen and paper. I’ve found that can be helpful when you’re around real Japanese people, and you want to write them notes.
Pros & Cons. Try both, and pick the one that works best for you.
Here you go:
http://www.kanji-a-day.com/100kanji.php
I also decided to learn the stroke order for the top 100 kanji as well. That slows you down a bit, but it’s worth it because I can have a very strong sense of the stroke order for just about any other kanji I see. I still come across kanji that learning these don’t help me with, but nine times out of ten I know the stroke order or kanji I’ve never seen.
Why does stroke order matter?
There are plenty of times I can’t copy, and paste kanji. When I’m on the street, when it’s an image, when it’s in a book, etc. There are three different tools you can use to look up a kanji by stroke order, and sometimes you can get away with getting the stroke order wrong, but usually if you want to find it you have to be exact, or 95% correct.
The one I use the most, is an app for my android called kanji recognizer. I can’t recommend this app enough. It also includes a quiz mode that lets you practice JLPT kanji, or your favorites. The author is awesome, and has responded to every email I’ve sent him, and even added a couple of feature changes for me:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.nick.kanjirecognizer&hl=en
The second tool is Windows IME Pad. When you install the Japanese keyboard option in Windows it will add an extra icon called IME Pad. If you are unsure how to find it or use it just Google, since it’s slightly different per version of Windows. However, once you have it installed, know where it is, and how to use it it’s the most flexible kanji recognizer I’ve seen. You can really mess up the kanji, and it’ll usually have what you’re looking for in the possible matches. I try to use it less for that reason however. While I’m learning I want to be strict about my stroke orders. Still, in a pinch I’m glad it’s there.
The last option is a real denshi jisho. I have friends, American and Japanese that don’t have Windows, or Android, and they just use their denshi jisho. I don’t have personal experience with one. I’ve seen them use them to great effect though. They don’t understand why I use my phone, but my phone is smaller than a denshi jisho, and I tend to always have my phone on me anyway. Also, denshi jishos are not cheap.
I think that’s everything I can offer on kanji at the moment, but if you have questions let me know.
Don’t worry about kanji it takes time. It takes time for people who live kanji 24/7. You can’t expect to pick it up faster can you?
One thing I did, but not around season 2, much closer to season 4, is learn the top 100 kanji. It’s a really good bang for your buck sort of thing. It won’t nearly be enough to let you pick up a book, and read, but they do pop up a lot, and it’s a great start.
I do not work for Microsoft. I was lucky enough to be sent to a Microsoft conference for work. I’ve also been lucky enough to write applications for some fairly well known organizations, and I’m currently writing health care applications.
I’ve found Japanese to be fairly challenging, but when I first started writing code it was challenging as well. Knowing my weaknesses as a programmer was key to getting better. One day I suddenly realized people were looking to me as the experienced software developer. I take the lessons I learned from becoming an experienced programmer, and apply them to learning Japanese. It’s not too different from the philosophies you’ve expressed.
@Ben Reilly – Your picture is tiny, so it’s hard to say, but you look like a guy I met at a Microsoft convention last October.
@Wasif Asif – Have you seen my advice for learning katakana, and hiragana?
This page: http://www.manythings.org/japanese/kana/
has lots of tools to practice the kanas. The two best are:
http://www.manythings.org/flvb/movies1.html
http://www.manythings.org/flvb/movies2.htmlThey give you American movie titles using katakana which is a great way to practice. If you miss a few characters in the title of the movie getting the rest will be enough for you to get the correct answer from the choices, which is a great way to learn from you mistakes. The sooner you get feedback the faster you learn. Getting feedback as I answered the questions really sped up my learning of the kanas, and helped me to find out whatever characters gave me the most trouble.
@Ben Reilly – Are you a software developer by chance?
If a mnemonic doesn’t make sense to you, then come up with one that does. They should be easy for you to recall. Sometimes I can’t think of an easy mnemonic, but it’s best to really try. Sometimes the act of trying to think of a mnemonic is enough to put the word into your head.
As for remembering the readings for kanji I had a hard time remembering if a sound was on or kun. I asked several times for advice on the boards here, and only got useless answers like “You just remember.” In the defense of the people responding I wasn’t asking the right question. The question I should have asked was “Is there a good way to remember which is which?” The answer is yes. When I use Anki on the kanji deck I say the meaning of the, say to myself “this is an on’yomi”, and then the sound. The step of actively reminding myself it’s the on’yomi reading is the trick to remembering which sound goes with on vs. kun.
@Wasif Asif – Naw you got it all wrong. When I first started I thought everyone, on the board, was hyper experienced compared to me as well. It turns out most of us are only a little beyond you. Even the few of us who are way more experienced than you aren’t sharks compared to your goldfish because we aren’t out to eat you. We’re all here to support each other. Any additional size we have only helps you.
Learning Japanese is a super big long road, so it’s normal to feel tiny, but if you decide you’re in it for the long haul, then you have nothing to worry about.
Not all of us are lucky enough to be human beings purely made of Kanji. As such we may need extra motivation from time to time. ;)
I wouldn’t worry too much about the passion list. I got stuck on it for a bit because all of the things I’m passionate about seem to only have loan words associated with them, so they were all katakana, and all basically English. I worked really hard to find an interest of mine that wasn’t loan word centric, and even then I had to work to find enough non-loan words that weren’t a stretch. When it was all said, and done I didn’t get much out of the list.
I”ve heard others on Textfugu say the same about their lists. However, I’ve heard some say that their lists really were a great tool. I think that’s a reasonable sign that your mileage will vary on the list. If you’re having a hard time finding good words that you’ll actually want to use, and that aren’t loan words, then your list will likely be not that useful. If you’re not having any problems, then it’ll likely be a good thing.
I do agree with the idea that you should get experience looking things up, and the list is a good introduction to that world, but if you’re stalling because of it then you need to move on. You’ll have plenty of other chances to look things up. :)
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This reply was modified 11 years, 10 months ago by
